#159: Conscious (with Annaka Harris)

One of the immediate attractions of this podcast, to anyone who has listened to more than one or two of them, is the unedited goofy beginning of this where Sam and his wife Annaka figure out how to get into the dynamic of interviewer/interviewee instead of husband and wife. A lot of awkward moments, a lot of laughs, and a thoroughly enjoyable glimpse into the man behind the rigorous, austere veneer that must be the face of every public figure.

Once you get past that, there may not be much of interest to the hard-core neuroscientist or political observer or AI researcher. But if you come at these with a more general interest level, which probably describes most of us, then you might derive something from it. I for one was expecting to hear Sam extract from Annaka that the hard problem was going to be solved in ten years and soon we'd be making computers that were just as conscious as we are.

Instead, she voiced a scruple that I share: what if consciousness isn't an either/or proposition (humans have it but dogs don't, for example) but more of a phenomenon that can occur in degrees. Humans are more complexly conscious than rats, who are more conscious than complexly worms, who are more complexly conscious than bacteria, who are--who knows?--more complexly conscious than atoms.

I did my PhD dissertation in relativistic quantum mechanics, and I still don't understand how an electron knows when to emit a proton that is off-shell, and when to emit one that is on-shell. Or why the energy that makes up an electron decided to coalesce into the clunky and sluggish existence of matter at all! Why not remain pure, massless, and immune to entropy?

So I say, maybe there is some level of complexity within even the reductionless point particle we call an electron. And maybe that complexity is a building block of consciousness, though we only recognize it when it has been added to in sufficient number.  And it was pretty cool to hear these two skirt this idea. To hear Sam say, "what is it like to be an electron?"